I will add to what Jason said and remember when a PCA church in Alabama tendered a call to a PCA minister from Louisiana and the Presbytery did not accept his credentials (or there was resistance to accepting the credentials). The local church then made the choice to vote out of the PCA and enter into the CREC. What was and is somewhat bewildering is those involved will often make much ado about the importance of the visible Church. In that case did not the visible Church speak and the response was not to submit and opt out.
Pretty amazing what gets (choose one) 1) mistakenly said / 2) accidentally revealed in this comment thread. Is the CREC not a part of the visible church?
Didn’t Jason claim to refuse to call Peter Leithart a heretic? What was the point of that?
So when a Presbytery tells a church that they may not receive a PCA minister in good standing as their pastor it is wrong and disrespectful to the Church for the body to join a denomination that agrees with them?
What status is being attributed to the PCA and denied to other denominations in this little group?
What good is it for the SJC to make a point of denying that they are calling Dr. Leithart a heretic and even allow he may be broadly Reformed if this sort of sect spirit is fostered in the same denominations?
Do you as a Christian really want to have anything to do with such attitudes?
Unbelievable. Some people need to stop worrying about seeing Judaizers around every corner and start worrying about 1 Cor 3:17.
Actually, given the Judaizers claim that they are the only ones fully in the kingdom, and their right to judge others, I think that Calvin might say that they should worry about seeing Judaizers in the mirror.
By the way, the writer seems to be an ex-protestant defector [edited] to Rome. So we’re seeing someone attack a congregation for leaving accusers who said they weren’t properly Protestant, when he himself… All this wish for a way to shut people up when they read the Bible is leading to a very bad place.
Wow. That is appalling. It’s amazing to me how different presbyteries are in the PCA. Mine, for example, has Peter Leithart in it! The only silver lining I see is that the coming persecution in the West will subdue Machen’s vitriolic spawn or leave them out in the cold alone.
Are you familiar with “The Cage Phase” — if not, it’s worth googling. Some people never out grow it.
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Good to meet someone from my first Presbytery (ordained 1998 to pastor out of bounds), Robert.
Sadly, I don’t need to google “cage phase”; I just need to remember past behavior–my own.
OK, that twitter comment is aimed at a specific post. If anyone has a problem with what I have written here, I’d love to hear about it. I have received 0 critique in all the years I’ve published it.
Do you listen to Rob Rayburn’s preaching? He just lost an elder because Rapid Anti-FV-ism won’t let many in the PCA read about the Judgment according to Works, despite it being Biblical. I can forward you Rob’s sermon series in response to the FV and Historical-Redemptive controversies if you like…
Mark, please accept my apology. It was not my intention to cause you or anyone, for that matter, hurt.
I used a concrete example to back up something Jason had briefly commented on. Your response seems to suggest I divulged privileged information, but, as you probably know, this situation was well known in the PCA and those involved have even written about it online. What I wrote was not incorrect. There was legitimate concern that the credentials might be rejected.
Now I must say that I find it strange that the PCA can claim to be a united denomination and yet ministers are ministers only in their Presbytery. If a man seeks a call outside his presbytery he must be examined by another presbytery. The testimony of the sending presbytery is not enough to allow for a transfer. If a priest in the Catholic Church desires to transfer all he needs to do is receive permission from his Bishop and a Bishop to receive him if there is a need. There is no examination of his views or positions etc… (Canon Law 265-272). I think that someone who has been challenged and tested by a Presbytery (and having gone through it, it is stressful and grueling, sometimes you feel as though the Presbyters are waiting for the blood in the water) and who has a letter of recommendation from them as to his reception of the documents of the Church should be able to transfer to another Presbytery without having to go through an examination. But, who am I to say.
It also needs to be said that some serious questions are raised when those who place an emphasis on the importance of the visible Church and her authority can pretty much side-step that authority when we don’t like their decisions or even potential decisions.
As to whether or not the CREC is part of the visible church, the answer, under a Protestant construal must be “Yes” but in saying that so too must it be granted that a group that meets in garage or a house and listens to the word read and preached is also part of the visible Church. I really do not know how one could truly say “no.”
Your use of apostate is interesting because apostasy is an outright rejection of Christ and His claims. Now I concede that I am a heretic according to the PCA standards but the real question is: “Does the PCA have any authority from Christ to call anyone a heretic?” Can it not be said that with the Reformation there is the death of heresy, or, in other words, “heresy according to whom?”
Sincerely in the peace of Christ,
Tom
Tom, let me address only one issue you raised: I decided I should not have used the word “apostate.” I do think that the term may apply. The northern Kingdom of Israel remained part of God’s covenant people even in their shrine-worship, yet I do think that for a Southern-Kingdom resident to move north in order to worship at the shrines could represent a soul-destroying act of unbelief.
So I seriously warn people who move from the Protestant faith and embrace various practice that I think are clearly condemned.
That being said, I don’t know you and I have not been in the habit of making this estimate about strangers. I don’t think the way I warn people of danger whom I know should carry over with people I don’t. I’m open to correction on this point, but that’s been my procedure and I am not comfortable that I deviated from it.
So I edited my comment.
Oh, and I don’t think you divulged privileged information. Wish more would get divulged but am not sure if I will do that.
Robert, is it available on the Church website? I’ll send you my email if that is preferable.