Regarding the interview, and the way things are “practically” unconfessional, lets ask ourselves if we have any guide for practice in the Bible.
I will take the Corinthian correspondence as an example, though I will happily deal with any other pastoral example you want to ask about in the comments.
So here are some discussion questions.
- Did Paul write letters to the Corinthian church?
- Did he tell this congregation that they were sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours?
- Did he write to the congregation that God would sustain them to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ, and assure them of this by saying that God is trustworthy and that they were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord?
- Did Paul tell the congregation that God chose them so that they should not boast?
- Did Paul tell the congregation that they are God’s field, building, and temple in whom the Spirit dwells?
- Did Paul warn this same congregation that the arrogant among them might face some consequences when he came?
- Did Paul demand that the congregation put out from among themselves one who was living in sin, and tell them they should do this precisely because they were holy?
- Did Paul tell the Corinthians that they were were washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God?
- Did Paul tell the Corinthians that they had to stop using prostitutes because their bodies were holy and joined to the Spirit and they were members of Christ?
- Did Paul warn those who were eating at idol feasts that they might destroy the one for whom Christ died?
- Did Paul present himself as an example of someone running a race with determination in order that he not become disqualified from the prize?
- Did Paul warn this congregation that idolatry would lead to damnation? Is destruction in the wilderness a warning of some lesser kind of punishment?
- Did Paul premise his warning on the claim that they had all been baptized and eaten spiritual food and drink.
- Did Paul describe the church as one body by calling it “Christ”?
- Did Paul tell the Corinthians that they had been baptized in one body and so were members of one body by the Spirit?
- Did Paul tell the congregation that they were each individually members of the body of Christ?
OK, so far I’m only up to chapter 12 and I’m getting tired? Let me ask one more question from the end of Second Corinthians. At what point did Paul stop telling the Corinthians they were in Christ and were the body of Christ and had his Spirit and tell them to examine themselves to see if they were in Christ? What was he about to do in the near future?
Now, if “the Federal Vision” is presenting a false and wrong practice in the churches, may God end the voice and influence of “its” proponants. But if “the Federal Vision” is defending exactly the pastoral practice we see in Scripture consistently and without exception in both Testaments, then may her false accusers be quieted.
I haven’t listened to the interview, because I know that my blood pressure would not be the better for it. At the same time, I’d like to offer a friendly challenge. Wouldn’t the classic judgment of charity lay the foundation for the practices enumerated above? In addition, isn’t it true that some FV advocates, such as Wilkins, go beyond the classic judgment of charity by conceiving new senses for traditional “ordo salutis” categories for the reprobate? If so, then isn’t it true that one can practice the same approach as Paul (based on the classic judgment of charity) without adopting some of the theological justifications proposed by some FV advocates?
Cordially in Christ,
~Jason
Jason, somewhere in the comments Joel Garver has an excellent discussion of the judgment of charity and related issues…. But I’m not sure how to find it right now.
But, I wrote the above not to address everything but to address the tact taken by Guy Waters in the interview. If you’re right, then Guy Waters sees the judgment of charity as a great threat to proper pastoral procedure. Because what he hammered was the change in pastoring and preaching that the FV is mandating. What he described, in my opinion, condemns the Apostle Paul as an FV pastor.
To your wider question, I’ll just express my opinion, without defending it, that I think Steve Wilkins is doing exactly what William Perkins did in his “ocular catechism” (i.e. “diagram”) with the experience of the regenerate and unregenerate professing believers. The only difference I see is that Steve Wilkins has a more robust view of common grace (see John Murray’s essay by that title, though I don’t know if that essay directly influence Wilkins), a greater confidence that unregenerate professing believers will fall away in this life (at least in the context of a faithful church}, and a great deal less confidence in the value of discerning one’s heart in moments of intensive introspection.
Finally, I see in Corinthians every indication that Paul would claim that apostates have lost real blessing and privileges, not hypothetical ones. I would not say they fell from the special grace of the elect and, as I thought was made clear in Steve’s interaction with his Presbytery, neither would he.